Time for those photos - this TTn3.5 version is a reduced/modified sample of the P34 (9MM) model which I am in the throes of getting together in that scale. - already   RTR  version in the mini scale will be available once the detail components have been finalised. The pilot etch as is shown above will allow those hardy souls to build their own mechanism, choose their own power source, equalise the chassis, fit DCC etc

Ready to run Hitachi TR in nz120?! Awesome!

interesting, who will build and paint them... ? 

Trying at present to confirm arrangements with a modeller in the UK, who does this sort of thing in their 2mm group - attempts to tap into the NZ market for these services have been rather a non-event, not from a skills view point, but from an availability (ability to meet a project timeline & budget). The few who offer such services here appear to be completely snowed under, so loathe to put pressure on them from our small patch.

For those of you with a hankering for one of these (probably not available until 2011 - given have Ds/Dsc/Dh kit/etch projects to finish first), have a look at its big brother version on the "Q, Q, H & A - Ds/Dsa/R & H 0-6-0 chassis" tab on this group - its posting #61, third picture down.

If anyone is keen to assist by assembling a batch of five of these, then they could be available maybe by year-end  - still have to hear from the Ndrive guys re power units. 

like KiwiRail ey ? why build them here if you can let them build abroad...

who is offering this service here ? did you ever ask this guy ?

In response to Steve4paintings recent post #5 on this saga - brief answer to comment #2 is NO I didn't ask "this guy" - my comments re NZ modellers approached were the result of my experiences with what some may term "the traditional sources" of such services - I am only to happy to discuss with a NZ modeller who is interested, a project to assemble these etchs & parts so RTR versions can be unleashed in their thousands on the unsuspecting NZ market - if you are of a mind Steve, email me so we can discuss this opportunity further offline.

Unlike Kiwirail I would prefer to work with someone here, rather than try to manage the process with someone across the other side of the world, even though I am more than happy with the end product in larger scale I get ex the UK.  

what would the chance of just having a Tr kit and not a RTR for those of us who wouldn't mind trying to atempt soldering.

Given there is sufficient demand, i.e more than five confirmed orders, there is a very good chance of a TTn3.5 kit for a Tr - at present I have the pilot etch for the Hitachi, & am expecting a confirm back from Ndrive in a month for a RTR power mechanism for this (40 quid + p & p for the drive) - all thats needed for me ( or someone else if they want to volunteer) to do are make some masters for the sandboxes, headlights, domes, brake cylinders & air tanks, get them cast & voila the kit is ready - not sure what it would cost, and it will have to come after the Drewry Ds, BTH Dsc & GE Dh have been completed & are ready, hopefully all this year - so a Tr kit would be a 2011 production. based on that schedule.

Mike, you say awesome - how much do you think a RTR NZ120 engine would cost ?

- etched kit
- casted add on parts
- drive
- DCC equiped
- building the kit
- painting, decaling, weathering

...you wont get all that for the price of an Atlas N scale or H0 scale DCC equiped engine !

question to everyone, each and everyone of all 60 something registered users here on this forum, what price would you be willing to pay for a RTR Tr, how much for a RTR DX or DF ? 

Greg, what is the wheel space of the Tr ?

many moons ago I did try to build something similar to a DS or DSA with a minitrix N scale drive and a Tillig shell (unfortunately the Tillig shell is more like 1:100 than 1:120 and looks way too big beside a DC or DF)...

...maybe this minitrix drive could be used (it has spoked wheels and counter weights) if one of the axles is removed but I would need the dimensions first. cheers.

Um, I wouldn't. They are not in my time period.

plus I've built quite enough Dx's and Df's in a previous life.

As for cost, I've just switched off to this in my Ka/ja project, lifes far too short to worry about it.

Price is based purely on supply and demand and being that there is a fairly small amount of people modelling nz120 scale prices for nz120 items will in most cases be more than the mass produced N scale American and English loco's and rolling stock.

I reckon a RTR DX or DF/DFT in nz120 with DCC would be around the $350 using a trackside kit and an american drive. I'd say a UK wagon would be around the $50-60 mark minus couplers.

A RTR Hitachi. Pretty hard to work out what that would cost because the drive is still an unknown and I have no idea what the price for an etch would be either. The fact that we're even talking about a RTR TR in nz120 says a lot about how far this scale has come in the last few years. 

I'm only new to the scale so I might be a mile off on my estimates. I'd be interested to hear what some of the people producing the kits are thinking.

Cheers

Mike

you are NOT the target market my question was directed at - I know you wouldn't buy a RTR DX or DF (I wouldn't neither) but there are many people out there asking for RTR NZ120 and have no idea what real labour (not in India or China) is worth nowadays...

...if I have to build a DF or DX kit, supply the Kato drive and the kit, DCC decoder, print the decals, paint, decal and weather the model the price would be roughly between $549 and $639. (and suddenly there is no interest in RTR NZ120 at all .) 

other question, what type is this neat little Tr (or what builder) and what type of cars are on this picture ?

http://www.trainweb.org/tranzrail/tr/TR920.jpg

ok...

DF kit $70

Kato drive $110 (US $65 plus shipping)

DCC decoder $50 (US $28 plus shipping)

paint and decals: $15

total:  $245

leaves $105 for building, programming, testing, painting, decaling, weathering - no way José !

(would you work for less than $5 an hour ?)

http://www.trainweb.org/tranzrail/tr/TR920.jpg

Tr shunter is one of the last loco's built by NZR from Hillside Workshops, built from 1973 to 78. Original numbers 183-191 TMS 874-966. The wagons are Ca hopper wagons with 'hunger boards' on top. Possibly used for fertiliser (or fine coal) hence the tarp covers over the top. At the other end of the Tr, it could be a Udk depressed centre wagon for carrying oversize containers on tight clearance lines. This based on the small part of bracketing at the edge of the photo.

Russell

Whoa - go to sleep at your peril it seems - big thoughts on this thread, plus rooves disappearing elsewhere and tons of rain (we have an HEP lakes storage issue???).

In response to Steve's two queries in posts #10 & #13:

(1) the Hitachi Tr axles are 7'1" apart (or near enough to 17.5mm in TTn3.5) - wheel diameter is 39" (or 8.125mm in TTn3.5)

(2) the Tr which you asked about is an NZR Hillside (Dunedin) workshops unit, the last class of Trs that NZR assembled - nine were built; the wagons are one of the C# type for carting coal ( not sure which one - good plans in past NZMR Guild Journals of all 3/4? types).

For Mike - an etch sheet for a loco such as the Hitachi Tr (or the Drewry Ds type small diesel loco) would probably run in the NZ$ 35-45 price range at present, depending on where it was etched, whether it was brass or nickel silver, what the exchange rate is and what postage costs are.

The power mechanism drive unit supplied by NDrive for 0-4-0 diesel locos runs at about $85 at present, plus postage (non DCC), then for an RTR model you would need to consider the other costs which Steve has itemised to get an RTR model on your tracks.

So, in summary, just the "cost" for the "guts" (etched body + rtr power unit) of a kit for a small loco like the Hitachi Tr in TTn3.5 would run to $120-$140, BEFORE its assembled, and that cost allows no margins to cover the costs of preparation of all the art work, trial assembly, modifications etc before the production etches even see the light of day.

THUS, THE BIG QUESTION this poses is are Kiwi rail modellers in our scale ready to part with such sums to pursue their hobby ? - after all Mr Bachmann charges about $120 for a brand new RTR BR Class 08, and Atlas or Kato can do a GP something for about the same, increasingly DCC ready. 

The "C" wagons are CG's. Modified from CA's with the addition of Hungry Boards and Covers (and possibly seals on the discharge doors?). These are in captive service from somewhere in the South Island (sorry, can't remember where) to the Silo's at Marton carrying Grain (and maybe Hops - now we're talking), hence the "CG" designation.

Steve - good to see someone finally talking realistically about dollar values with your cost breakdown in #14.

It won't be hops. They get nicely vacuum packed in Nelson which doesn't go anywhere near a railway line any more. must order some more...

Concerning RTR:I know Im one of the new kids on the block,but one of the apeals of the scale is Im BUILDING my trains(albeit roughly).Maybe completed loco shells and wagons might be the easier way to attract more followers?Anyway as I said Im the new guy so take what I say with a grain of salt and a very worn 2cent piece.

Cheers

Stu.

I did measure the minitrix drive and the axles are 16.75mm apart - wheel diameter is 8.3mm

yes, too long, probably too high but it could be modified...

Just a further observation re this debate is moving a tad further (& to get Dr Brash to put another "marker" on the "Catch Oz by 2025 task force" agenda); a quick perusal of the June 2010 Australian Model Railway Magazine reveals a continuing, and perhaps accelerating, quantum shift in their rail modelling philosophies to that on this side of the ditch, as evidenced by their following offerings:

1) an NSWGR O scale RTR railcar, painted etc for A$1595 (an HO scale one at A$1095)

2) O scale steam locos  - rtr by Ajin - at A$3295

3) HO scale steam locos - rtr by Ajin again - at $1695

4) N scale RTR Australian National Lines diesels - (a) an NR class - etched body on an Atlas SD60 mechanism (not scale/wrong bogie sideframes) - A$400 or $500NZ; & a smaller DL class with polyurethane body on an Atlas SD9 mechanism for A$250 (or $313 NZ) - again not a true scale model of the real thing.

5) an O scale Manning Wardle 0-4-0 loco to be offered shortly

6) lots of rtr wagons & kits, including some which will be injection moulded, in HO, N, O & S.

and their DCC stuff seems significantly cheaper than some of the prices which are around in NZ as well.

Now, based on the member stats of their various model rail groups, the puzzling question to which the answer seems to allude us here is "why?" all this activity over there, and  similarly in the multitude of peverse scales/interests in the UK? e.g their N Scale group has developed some 26 wagon kits; the 2MM guys are onto their 4th loco.

Do we really suffer from an el cheapo mentality in this sphere too, (perhaps inherited from our Scots & Irish forebears?) as M Druff has posed, or is it the 'number 8 wire syndrome" coming to the fore again. or are we really a third world economy, on subsistence wages?

check out black diamond modals for RTR locos  HOn3.5 QR locos for price comparasons

from the Black Diamons webpage:  All HO Scale locomotives are $AU$435.00 delivered, ready to run. (NZ $545)

but these are H0 models, they are bigger, that means NZ120 models have to be cheaper because they are smaller, right ? - YEAH RIGHT !

I did some 'fumbling' with the minitrix drive (V36, V60, BR260/261) and an Arnold and a Kato motor. the Arnold motor is from a Köff, the Kato from one of the pocket drives. now I have to look for a motor in the same size as the Kato one but with an axle on both sides or with a longer axle on one side to put a flywheel on for further tests...

this is just to give you an idea about the size of the drive and different motors, I will order a proper motor...

with this size of motor there would even be space for a flywheel...

I like duct tape...

Cool developments on the other threads re 1 piece 'big" diesels, & from above postings SteveW looks like may have sorted out another possible option to power the little etched Trs  under consideration- just got a response from Ndrive in the UK about their RTR solutions from their off the shelf current range - the closest fit is their 16mm axle centre, inside frame, diesel mechanism, with 8.25mm disc wheels.

Now this poses a dilemma for the exact scale minded amongst us, as the Hitach would "technically" require 17.7mm axle centres, & 8.125mm wheels -  so the w/b is 9% too short & the wheels would be 2% too big. I have asked Nev if he can do a 17.5mm frame, with 8mm wheels 9 which he offers on other chassis - (also has 7.75mm wheels ) but have yet to hear back from him.

The Question for you punters is thus - "what degree of compromise (IF ANY??) would be acceptable in those key elements, as a trade off against waiting another 12 months (if lucky) to get a near to "spot-on" axle & wheel spaced version ?"

OBTW, these units are currently priced at 37 quid, or about $80 plus P & P, and they come with rather nice gearing. 

They are also working on a BR Class 08 drive replacement for the Bachmann model, which may be a better option to power the Drewry Ds etch - its still in test though, so not sure of availability &/or price yet. These appear to have Mashima 1015 motors, but other small power units are under consideration. 

steve4painting asks: "question to everyone, each and everyone of all 60 something registered users here on this forum, what price would you be willing to pay for a RTR Tr, how much for a RTR DX or DF ?"

Having recently (well, within the last 12 months) shelled out 5 bucks short of a K for an assembled Sn3.5 Wf kitset (DCC ready, painting & weathering to my specs, p&p, yada, yada, yada) that was RTR upon arrival on my doorstep, I suppose, whatever is being asked (within reason).

Would I want an RTR Tr?

I "play"shunting, so, yeah, I'd be be happy to pay anywhere between $250-350 for an unpainted model.

As 2 cents is no longer legal tender (and inflation is running rampant), that's my 10 cents worth.

Dorian

As the box states " NOT SUITABLE for children under under 10 years old" -  so if you are one, don't read any further.

 Its what was in the box which is really fascinating - yes finally the long-awaited N DRIVE Productions (UK) - long w/b 0-4-0 power unit, to test with the Hitachi Tr etch which has been patiently waiting.

As its a "pilot" chassis, it came with 8.25mm disc wheels, & a tiny Mashima driving a series of little gears .

 Wheelbase is pretty close to the Hitachi Tr, and those wheels are just .12 on the large size - Neville thinks he can fit an 8mm diameter wheel, which would be .13 undersize.

Unit will be travelling North to the workshops for a testing time on Monday, after which a performance report will be forthcoming.

Until then you will just have to be content with some pix of the unit, ex its 'container". 

Progress of sorts on this one too - Neville is ready to produce some slightly modified mechanisms and will begin discussions re production of an external fittings set so that can be available to dress up  this one - will be a Xmas 2012 project though regrettably as the calendar is already disturbingly full through to year end with other "stuff". ( sorry - no plans to produce the etched cab fittings set which you can order for the 9MM GM Hitachi - unless someone really is up for a challenge?)

how are the TR s going??????????????????????????????????????????????????