Can we get a picture of the etch to examine it? It looks quite similar, but the cab windows might be different.

Wheels on Drewry ds's are on the inside of the fraim and rodes on the out side, do this and you are the MAN!, then ad a motor (sound hard yet?)  If you can do all this than whots on offer mite sound good. 

I did enquire if Worsely was interested in doing a Dsa, but the figures started going through the roof, and the current market here may have spat the dummy on price. I'm thinking the current run of Grafar class 08 outside frames chassis would suit though.

What are the dimensions of the Grafar 08?  In particular the height ie, maximum, and the width?  The issue may be whether it fits under the hood of a 1:120 unit.  One of the problems with it in N is that its rods really stick out a bit further than they should, which in TT is not going to be an issue.

Ben

The BR 08s were 350 hp "beasts" which may represent fundamentally different in concept and physically bigger units than the NZR Dsa Dreweries - the BR Class O4s were 204 hp and per the evolution of such shunters have a 'disturbing" family resemblance, having been assembled by Vulcan Foundry too. My musings on this one was to gauge interest of NZ120ers in a quickie approach to a "representative" version of a Dsa in 2.5mm scale - rather than have to create a totally new CAD version, a new phototool, a test etch, assembly, correction to CAD etc process, Allen was suggesting that he "resize" his current 3mm scale O4 to 2.5 mm, and regauge the frame spacers to suit 9mm r.t 12mm gauge - this process should be much cheaper than developing a completely new CAD for etching, but trade off is that it will not be an exact NZR Dsa - an option would be to power such a model with a GF or Dapol 2mm scale power unit - I have one on order to see if it is any good, how hard it may be etc.

Point is, is anyone interested in this approach, in addition to moi??   

yes, count me in for one...

...I will ask Alister, maybe he is interested as well

I've had some time today to compare photos of the Ds and 04, and the differneces seem to be minor.

the cab roof would need to be reshaped, plus a window added to the front plate. the grill at the front is a bit too small. Apart from this it looks OK. With the farish 08 chassis it would look very close.

All comments in this message are not confirmations that it will indeed work.

Yes I'm interested in one as well, thanks Steve mate!!!

I'm a Tasmanian and we had them too.  Ours were very, very close to the 04, so the more you leave it as an 04, the happier I'll be. 

http://www.railtasmania.com/loco/loco.php?id=v

Don't model TGR but it seems churlish not to have one given the modest outlay.  So put me down for one.

Ben

just a bit more info on the real locos to add to the head druff's comments in #7 above ( & indeed taking his salutory caution seriously)

- BR Class 04 - Drewry ( built 1952-62 - 147 built by Vulcan & RSH) their 204 hp 'standard' for gauges from 3' - 5'6" - 30 tons

                   wheel diameter - 3'3" or 3'6"; wheelbase 9'; length 26'; width 8'6", height 12'1" for 4'8 1/2 " gauged model - was the BR light shunter

- BR Class 08 - BR Derby/Crewe/ Darlington/Doncaster - 996 made - "gronk" had a 350hp donkey - BR "medium" shunter

                   wheel diameter - 3'6"; wheelbase 11'6"; length 29'3"; width 8'6"; height 12'6" ;50 tons 

- NZR Dsa - Drewry ( Vulcan) - was 204 hp "NG" version of the "standard" Drewry diesel mechanical loco -  30 tons

                  wheel diameter 3'3"; wheelbase 9'; length - 27'6" [ over couplers - both 04 & Dsa same 22'6" length over buffer beam] width 8'6"

                  height 11'6"

 So, - an uncannily similar match of the 04 to our Ds/ Dsa - have a version of the 04 & 08 on their way to these shores as we speak, so can check the mechs etc. in real life and assess the degree of fit (or not) for this potential, plus running characteristics etc - Allen is also sending me a 3mm etch to assess any cosmetic changes which may be able to be accomodated. fingers crossed guys. 

Assuming Farish's 08 is close to prototype dimensions, always a dangerous thing to base one's calculations on . . . viz any model, in any scale . . .  it is going to scale to just under a 9' 4" wheelbase in TT. 

If you take into account the smaller wheels on the 08, they will possibly be 7.46mm (3'6" in 1:148) and should be over 8mm for a DSA,  it is likely the chassis may be very close, to within a mm or so.  In reality, being an outside frame beast, none of it matters much except the counterweights and rods. 

I think the real issue is whether the high hood 08 is low enough to fit under the lower hood of the DSA, and if not, can it be modified to do so.  

Ben

Wow – I just did the "compare and contrast" exercise with an 04 and some pics that I have of the Ds and the resemblance really is uncanny!

I'm keen, especially if they can do something about the roof/ window/ grille, as MD pointed out.

Now do you think that they'd make an etch for a DJ body...?

 re Dj -work is going on slowly (very) for an etched one of these in another SCALE - once that project is done, then it is designed so that it can be simply rescaled to fit my TTn3.5  requirements - with everything else going on though its targeted for Convention 2012 - if anyone else wants to do it quicker, then go for it, as my Micro Ace  EF64 Bo-Bo-Bo is advised as in transit from Japan - this looks to be pretty close to the mark as a Dj power chassis. 

OK, I went out and bought an Farish 08 today at a finescale exhibition at a local hall here in the East End.  They are just one of those 'have to have' locos because they have so much potential.  The top of the motor is about 12.6mm off the running plate and behind that is a black housing which appears to be made of metal and it's 13.4mm high.  Whether this could be reduced in height I'm not sure but I suspect yes. The shell of the 08 is thick, heavy metal so the chassis is nowhere near as high as the 08 hood height.  Width is 8.06mm.

The wheels themselves seem to be a little oversize, I'd say c. 8.5mm dia, but it's hard to get the calipers in there to be sure.  Given it is outside frame, I doubt it matters. From the outer rim of the front wheel to outer rim of the rear wheel, ie the total visible length of wheels, it's 32mm.   This mech has heaps of narrow gauge potential, for just about any of a huge range of small 200-300hp lightlines or shunting centrecab 0-6-0 s, or endcabs like Drewrys, to other things.  I am sure Bachmann will have no trouble recouping their investment.

As noted in reviews, the drive rods do stick out a bit in N, about 1mm further than the running plate on each side.  But this is not an issue in TT, where the average width of small 0-6-0s seems to be about 8'6". So, in one way this is a better mech for TTers than it is for the N guys.

Ben

Cheers for 'taking one for the team' Ben. Any chance of some pictures.

From the pictures I've seen the outside cranks would possibly do with a counterweight added.

The UK MRJ way back in their Issue #3 ( Autumn 1985), had an extensive article on the Class 4 Drewry shunter, titled (sigh) "The Many Faces of the 04" - included GA's of the D2200 (with "modesty skirts") & D2294, ( in 4mm scale) - the SR version, which appears pretty close to our DS and Dsa of the A1 type. ( the NZR A2 type had sloping cab sides whereas the others were straight - these were the last NZR order to Drewry of 20 locos) - am expecting the 3mm etch within a week, so will report back on the initial findings, as to how close a fit we may have with this one "as is" - the 08 chassis should be here soon too , so stage II of the experiment can commence.

I'll upload some views of a real one up here in Northland in the weekend, when I find the little memory card with those particular Drewry pix.

Will also need to hunt up the plans which various NZMR Guild Journals had of these locos, a few moons back. 

Sorry, I'd like to upload a pic of the Farish 08 chassis but the image software here won't let me.  It may be it's too big, but no idea how to shrink it.  In any event, the photo is rubbish, I'm an appalling photographer.

Ben

"The Story of Dsa 234" - owned by Harry Andrew,who, with the Oamaru Steam & Rail Trust, rescued then restored her to operational glory ( May 2008) - just so happens this weekend I will be passing through the Whitestone town, thus may have to "detour" to capture some details of this restored Drewry on camera. - evidently this may have been one of the A-2 types (the order of 20) - purportedly worked at Wellington, Napier, Invercargill (1 of only 2 so assigned to mainland) then Ohai Railway Board, gifted to OSR (spares),before winding up at Pukeuri, then back to OSR & its restoration ( with borrowed bits from other Ds/Dsa locos & a new engine - well done that group).

A consult of the pictures i could find gives some major differences between the Ds and Dsa (and not just the cab). the Dsa has 5 hood panels vs 4 on the Ds, so may well be longer (it certainly looks longer).

Still keen to see a picture of the fret when it arrives.

David Match has just posted some nice views of Dsa 234 on the NZHT - Rail Yahoo group - it is definitely the later A-2 version, with the sloping cab sides - the WW etch in 3mm has been airmailed to me, so may have it by the weekend - the 08 & 04 2mm GF models are expected the following week, so should be able to post some further informed comments by month-end - what was supposed to be a relatively simple exercise to assess the suitability (or otherwise) of a rescale of the WW etch to give us a close (but possibly not exact) representation of this ubiquitous diesel mechanical shunter is turning into a major project - I should have stuck with my original mission to just produce a TTn3.5 version of the one & only "big" Ruston & Hornsby 165 "oil engine" (which the Timaru Harbour Board imported just to be different) - still this Drewry exercise may also aid in an assessment as to whether the WW etch can also be modified to produce Bagnall & Hunslet Dsa's and perhaps even a Mitsubishi Dsa too - each would require some new CAD work, but the basic chassis/power units will be very similar, apart from the inside/outside frame dilemma posed. In a similar vein, we may be looking at some additional artwork to more closely reflect the original Drewry Ds, versus the Dsa A-1 type (with straight sided cabs) and the A-2 type as captured in those photos - arrgh - the Drewry ( aka Vulcan) was supposed to be a "standard" model !!!!!!  

Just a few shots I took of the Forest Loaders Drewry Ds [FL107] at Portland a while back, including the nice little makers plate which is on FL106 their Dsa - wonder what one of these plates is worth? - oh , you can see the straight cab sides the Ds & Dsa A-1's all came with, just like the BR Class  04's.

DS134 and DS157

Here's a good one. And, um, a not-so-good one...

And a DSA for good measure:

nice pix -the luverly "Midland Red" one is Dsa 234 at Oamaru?  (see post #20), whilst the other 2 are up at Springfield (on that adventurous "Midland line" restoration project site).

 - these shots graphically demonstrate the physical differences between the Ds & Dsa (A-2) classes

 - its worth a glance at the "preserved locos" website that Dave Match keeps up to see that it appears 7 Ds in various states & locations  may still be around, and eight? Dsa (all just from Drewry) also - so check them out - there may be one close to you.

Well, they had their Drewry Dsa all tucked away in the shed on Sunday at Oamaru,(can't have an "oil engine" involved in a Victorian fair day afterall !!).  However, I did get some pix of the Dubs A (ex OBR) steaming up, plus a few other shots around Duntroon that will aid the modular layout project no end ( & saw the white Dsc at Pukeuri) - then, further "good news" on my return up North; a nice little packet from Allen was waiting, with a 3mm scale "large window" Drewry 04 set of etches in "german silver"  - .010 for the body work, .018 for the frames - looks very nice too - will take some pix tonite and post tomorrow for all to comment - at first appearance, I am sure the etches will provide a very neat solution to a Drewry Ds in TTn3.5 for us, in short order - I fear the Drewry Dsa A-2 type (with its longer frame & sloped cab sides) & the Hunsletts & Bagnalls 0-6-0s will require a trifle more expeditious use of "ze lettle grey cells mes amis". [still waiting on the GF power sources -must chase them up.]  

And here's one that was prepared earlier...

I was looking through the Railmodel Electronics site and found this, which may be of interest to some of you:

G-J

Thats done with the old farish 08 Chassis. the new one has outside frames, and with the etch top (pictures still coming) should look much better detail wise.

I wonder if it will be possible/desirable to add the rear jackshaft.

Attached are three pix of the 3mm scale n/s etch Allen sent me of the BR 04 shunter (1) of the whole body etch (2) a sliced view of the cabs & (3) the frames  - there appears to be provision already on the coupling rods for the rear jackshaft representation - also shows a variety of cab rears - the proliferation of handrail etched holes may need some thought as to their NZR practice placement - also the rear & front headstocks will require a step to be added, plus the coupler pocket/fitting will need adjustment - the chassis is a simple fold over which may be superfluous if the GF 08 (new version) can be cobbled in ok - more on that exercise later - All in all I am quite "chuffed" at the possibilities of this etch as a sound basis for a TTn3.5 version of the Drewry Ds - it is not perfect, but its very close & certainly would pass the two foot test - comments please gentlemen, before I request Allen to crank it down to 2.5mm size. 

Ok, most obvious stuff for me would be the cab front windows (shaped wrong at the bottom plus missing the central one), the cab roof isn't quite right (has a cut away I assume to fit the loading guage) and the hood front grill I think should be a wee bit larger. The handrails could be etched (the ones along the top of the hood are one piece and could be done as such to make life easier. theres handrails on the real thing along the top of the headstocks as well. the front steps could be made out of scrap NS from the etched sheet.

Oh, an dwe could live wothout the chassis bit. with the farish 08 the only bits I would/could use are the counterweights. we don't know if the siderods will match the chassis and I'd rather not fidde rounfd with it.

Apart from that, amd remembering that this is a scatch aid rather than a kit, I think its very good. You might even tempt me to buy one even if I don't need it!

Is there a representation of the louvres for the hood doors on the etch? It's not clear to me in the photos whether there is or not...
And as MD said, the cab windows and front grille are the major differences. If there is some way that they could address this, then this will be more that just "representative" of the DS, it'll almost be a dead ringer

This looks a darned sight easier than scratchbuilding one.  It's not hard to tweak/add/subtract bits when the vast bulk of it is already the right shape.

Regards, Woody

re: louvres for hood doors on etch - Allen has provided 11 of these on the fret already - a column of 7 to the right of the cab backs/fronts, then 2 pairs of two, below the cab sides & the cab roof - these fit nicely into the eight half-etch hood "doors" with some spares.

Given there is enough interest in proceeding with this "representative" Ds - I will ask Allen what he may be able to do "simply, quickly & cheaply"  for a TTn3.5 version to address the apparent major cosmetic changes required to the cab front/back windows, plus the larger radiator grille, (once I track down a decent plan of the Drewry Ds for him).

A couple of points to bear in mind here though before proceeding further:

(1) changes mean additional artwork required, which equates to additional time & cost - my original thesis was to see how close the WW BR 04 was "as is" to the NZr Ds &/or Dsa, and if near enuff, then find a suitable mechanism to get another affordable 2.5mm scale loco etch going "for the Clan".  - as the etch stands now it is pretty close to the Ds (not the Dsa which requires quite a bit of engineering to achieve an acceptable representation) - a bit of "fettling" to the cab front/rear window area, & the front grille, the shunter's steps front & rear , an exhaust stack & you would just about be there for pretty fair representation of the Drewry Ds.

(2) the Ds class of 15 has been around for nearly 60 years now, and they have had a few changes to their appearance over time anyway - the usual approach to modelling a loco is to pick a representative example and either model it exactly at a certain point in time (often a "restored" example), or produce a "representative" model, with features drawn from a number of real locos, & perhaps over a period of years. Either way you get an end product which is "representative" of a particular class of locos.

further input please gents - gratefully received.  

Near enough is fine by me, if I want a perfect copy of a Ds I would rather build it in 9mm:ft anyway ;-)

Fair point re: changes = time = money. You don't know if you don't ask though ;-)

Some careful cutting should sort the cab profile out, although the front windows could be a bit trickier...

A copy of the "plan" for a Drewry Ds (from the August 1987 Journal) will shortly be on its way to Blighty; the document is accompanied by some detailed photographs and a series of annotations re possible mods of the "04" artwork for Allen to ponder further on - as soon as I hear from him, with feasibilty and costing comments, I shall report back to the group. 

Well done ! Keeping in mind that these (Worsely Works) kits are sold as "scratch aids", this looks like a winner, but in it's current form only needs minor mods done (windows etc). Keep it in as is form or redo ? Depends on the escalation of costs. I would can the chassis sheet and replace it with a sheet of counterweights and spare door louvres (for scratchbuilding other projects ;) ). The front grille looks fairly close to me, but I expect it wouldn't be a problem to enlarge the original when creating a 2.5mm etching image.

MD said "I wonder if it will be possible/desirable to add the rear jackshaft."  This wouldn't be needed as the most suitable chassis should be the Grafar Class 04 which already has a jackshaft. The Ds model pic in posting #25 would have been made many moons ago before the Grafar 04 came out. The latest Grafar 08 suits the Dsa as it has outside frames. I wonder how much fun John Tiller had turning an 08 chassis into a jackshafted 04 ?

Can I point out that the Ds had outside frames, so the best chassis is actually the new Farish 08.

The 04 mech would be bettersuited to those inside framed DSA's (hunslett etc).

I do agree about making mods to the etch. It will be interesting to see just how much more it woudl cost to do. I guess it depends on whethe or not the artwork is in CAD or not.

Also, an N gauge (2mm/ft 1:148) 04 chassis will be underscale if a TT9 (2.5mm/ft 1:120) body is placed on it. So the larger N 08 chassis scales out at near the 04 in TT...

Apologies to MD & GJ - you're right! I've just checked the journal plan to see that I forgot to engage my brain before my mouth (typing digit). Shame the 08 doesn't have a jackshaft. Hopefully another batch of the 08 will be released in the UK this week or next as I'm expecting one from Parkside Dundas anytime now.

The prototype dimensions of the BR 04 & 08 classes I noted for the group in post #10, together with the Ds principal dimensions - the 04  & Ds were both built by Vulcan Foundry for Drewry, and were to all intent & purpose a "standard" model, produced for a variety of gauges. The 08 was a physically larger machine, produced for BR by a number of the old big 4 workshops.

I thought we had pretty much agreed that the GF 08 new chassis would be one of the powering options - my sample is on its way here right now - the 04 one, unless GF have bodged it to be the same as the 08, will be a trifle too small probably for a representative Ds in TTn3.5. ( Thinks -it may suit "hacking" for a Tr 0-4-0 lash-up.)

If you look closely at the chassis etch for the 3mm scale 04 I posted in #27, you will discern that this comes with the connecting rods & a jackshaft already - so  another powering option is that chassis with a small High Level gear box & Mashima can motor ( as the 3mm guys in the UK do) - I am also going to explore a Bullant unit, to which these rods & jackshaft can then be added as a 3rd choice.

I expect an answer from Allen on the feasibilty & cost of the principal mods we have discussed on this Forum thread within a week or so

Good idea, that man! Looking at the DS has got me quite interested in the small shunting locos of NZR, so now I quite fancy a Bagnall and/or Hitachi TR. I was thinking the other day about a RTR mechanism that might suit a TR, but couldn't think of any decent N gauge 0-4-0s. Or any period, come to think of it...

It'd require a lot of bravery to attempt a butcher of such a neat wee loco though

I concur.

An N scale 04 is obviously going to be severely underscale for a TT version as the 04 to all intents and purposes is a DS or TGR V/VA. It's the same loco, same size. 

What's needed is an 08 chassis with some sort of jackshaft 'extension' modification (or just hide the area behind the cab steps ?)

Ben

Looking at the pictures in this post, the running gear of the 2 Springfield DSs and the Forestry Loaders Drewry have a respectable coating of grime that dulls this down. Compare that to the Oamaru DSA which is in immaculate condition with bright red counterweights...

So you could 'grime' out everything down there (and the jackshafon the PPCS DS is patially hidden by the mesh behind the footsteps) or bodge a rudimentary set-up out of brass / styrene, etc – it shouldn't be too hard.

Personally, I don't find the missing jackshaft as noticable as the cab profile, grille, or front windows. Each to their own. It'll be interesting to see how everyone tackles the etch and the different results that people come up with

I would only be concerned if we were having to do major surgery to the mechanism.  However, I don't think it will involve huge difficulties to add an extension to the GF side rods back to an 'idling' jackshaft - the Worsley etch has several spares.

Regards, Woody

The ex Journal plans for the Ds have been forwarded to Allen for comment on the suggested possible mods to his current BR Class 03 Drewry (1) larger rear cab windows; (2) half etch for centre window cab front [ note: the first order locos in 1949 had only the two tear-drop windows up front ] (3) two window configuration for cab sides; (4) shunters steps additions - front/rear; (5) larger radiator grille - marginal (6) altered cab front/rear profile; (7) half etch lines to larger cab roof.

Now - all those changes in reality amount to pretty much a new CAD drawing for the Ds cab in TTn3.5, which will result in a probable rise in the cost of a "Kiwiised"  03  past the $30 -$35 - I won't know to what extent till he gets back to me on this in a week or so. 

Based on a pretty good gander at the 3mm etch for the 03, the amount of "fettling" required to get real close to a Ds appears, relatively speaking, rather minor - some file & piercing saw work would see most of it done, with a 2 window insert addressing the cab side window configuration difference. - a new, larger cab roof, to fit the altered profile may also be required. This "representational" approach would mean the TTn3.5 Ds etch could be ready quite quickly - i.e. before Xmas - redrafting will necessarily delay production of a 2.5mm Ds etch till the new year.

The bigger challenge will be in marrying the new TTn3.5 body etch to the GF BR class 08 mechanism - I am inclined myself to go with the etched chassis as the UK 3mm guys have used for their version.

We will also have to produce the distinctive lights, exhaust, cab steps, air reservoirs & sanding units to complete the cosmetics, depending on what the 08 comes with. (mine still to arrive)

Fingers crossed guys.

Personally I think the 08 chassis swap is going to be much easier than you think. The extra details can be added with bits of plasticard and brass. The brass chassis has the almost insurmountable problem of 'where ae all the wheels and drivetrain going to come from? the 3mm stuff is OK< but remembe it s designed for a 14.mm track spacing, and theres no way a gearbox will fit between 9mm guage wheels.

I think there's nothing really hard on the top to fix as well. If its going to blow the price out $20 it might not be worth doing at all.

I'd ask for one in the stocking for christmas but daddy wants 2 1015 can motors for his Ew....

With out read all to find out,  how does the chasty and wheels space out?  as the lifelick I've used is close.

still waiting for my GF Class 08 to turn up from UK so I can run the calipers over it once disassembled - indications & feedback to date on this thread would seem to indicate that it will a close but not exact fit to the TTn3.5 etch of the WW "Ds/04" body etch - still afew weeks away from concrete comment on this possible marriage. 

My, those few weeks have passed quickly - latest news on this project is (1) my BR class 08 chassis has still to turn up, so have ordered one from Parkside like I should have done in the first place - and (2) Allen confirms that the requisite detail changes can be made to produce an etch in 1:120 which will closely approximate the NZR Drewry Ds - he is going to let me know what is entailed, and a likely cost of a finished etch, in nickel silver, will run out at. Could have pilot etch to test/share by February 2010 after all.

Your chassis shouldn't be far away as mine arrived from Parkside 2 days ago which I ordered about 3 weeks ago. I think there's been quite a supply/demand problem !

the fifthieth on this string already - just confirmed that the test etch from Allen for the modifed BR class O4 - aka NZR Drewry Ds class  with those modifications, - will be available for viewing and comment on this site in 3-4 weeks - after that review,and advice of any changes required we will be able to order the final "builders aid" etches in production batches of 12, at the princely sum of 12 pounds each, within another month. [start saving guys & gals}

looking forward to sharing the test etch for comment soon. Now where has my Class 8 mechanism gone??